Hi Paul, I talk about that here: Steely Dan CDs Different Masterings: The Summary Thread 3,6, and 7 are all Hoffman’s. By process of elimination, I believe 4 is the ‘80s Nichols. It’s similar to the Meadows, but definitely a different mastering. If 4 is actually a different Meadows mastering, then Nichols’s version was never released, despite what an ICE article claims.
That is correct - it is my belief that 3, 6, 7 are either Hoffman or Nichols, 4 is the pre-Citizen Meadows and ICE is incorrect. Cheers, Paul
Wow, that ICE article is pretty interesting. Love this quote from the Billboard article mentioned there: Nichols’ immediate reaction was one of disgust. “What pisses me off is to spend 20 years doing this, and spending two years on Gaucho alone. Two years, every ****ing day in the studio, and it comes to this. I have no reason to continue. I quit. I’m quitting the music business.”
3, 6, and 7 are the same mastering. Hoffman has claimed one of those discs is his. So I think the question is whether 4 is an ‘80s Nichols or, as you argue, a pre-Citizen Meadows. It would be surprising and fascinating if Nichols’s ‘80s mastering was never released.
Let's review: Another Steely Dan Aja CD test thread From this post: This info is outdated. Steve has confirmed that a certain CD owned by forum member Mal (namely, a UK disc with the catalogue number MCLD 19145) has his mastering, because Mal sent a copy to Steve. His CD turned out to be bit-identical to my German CD (MCD 01745 BMG Ariola) and to certain Japanese MCAD 37214 CDs owned by tone deb fred and Leppo. Using this post to untangle the matrix numbers: Another Steely Dan Aja CD test thread EAC Peak levels: 90.7 --- 91.7 --- 90.8 --- 88.9 --- 96.3 --- 86.2 --- 97.5 (MCD 01745, Made In Germany) 90.7 --- 91.7 --- 90.8 --- 88.9 --- 96.3 --- 86.1 --- 97.5 (MCLD 19145, Made In England) 90.8 --- 91.7 --- 90.6 --- 88.7 --- 96.3 --- 86.2 --- 97.6 (MCAD 37214, Made In Japan) We can update the table as follows: EAC Peak levels: Mastering 6: 90.7 --- 91.7 --- 90.8 --- 88.9 --- 96.3 --- 86.2 --- 97.5 (MCD 01745, Made In Germany) Mastering 7: 90.7 --- 91.7 --- 90.8 --- 88.9 --- 96.3 --- 86.1 --- 97.5 (MCLD 19145, Made In England) Mastering 3: 90.8 --- 91.7 --- 90.6 --- 88.7 --- 96.3 --- 86.2 --- 97.6 (MCAD 37214, Made In Japan) The copy Mal sent to Steve was Mastering 7 - see here: Another Steely Dan Aja CD test thread Just to clarify - Steve listened to the actual disc not a copy. He said it sounded exactly like his mastering and concluded that it must have been made from a clone of the original 1630 master he prepared for the original US release. In case the photo is not clear enough to see all the details clearly, here they are: Catalogue number: MCLD 19145 (printed on CD label) "Made In England" printed on CD label. Inner ring text: "A1388 DMCL 1745 : 1:0", "IFPI L123" [appears in small print twice on inner ring], "Mastered By Nimbus". Now, here's the basic issue: From Another Steely Dan Aja CD test thread So no matter what EAC says, the null testing verifies what Steve told me a couple of years ago-- the "Made in Japan" CSR disc is a fine sounding version of "Aja", but it's not his mastering. Mal's disc (with its **very** subtle differences) is. This would mean that 3 and 7 are different - but I would posit that they are indeed the same basic mastering. The subtle difference between 3, 6 and 7 is the low level noise floor - primarily on 7 - but they time align. If they time align, they're the same mastering pass - it's very highly unlikely that separate analog transfers would time align - too much variation in analog tape playback speeds. The differences must have either occurred digital copying or have been inserted during the CD production stage. As to whose mastering all three of these are? Unknown. It could be Steve's - it could be Roger's. We do know for a fact that Steve did a transfer from the master tapes - then turned all of them over to Roger. Roger's stated intention was to do his own transfer. However - since we don't have any records from that point on - it's a 50/50 chance this happened. Mastering 4 is too identical to Mastering 2 - they seem to share similar peak patterns. Glenn's comment might explain the slight differences: That was how all 7 albums were re-mastered, and re-released. The ONLY notation was a sticker that said “Recently Re-Mastered by Artist” The box set was simply a re-edit adjusting sequence to match that provided by MCA to fit on 4 CD’s. Since we were about a year and ahalf later, there were some improvements in the CEDAR system, and there were several tracks that I was unable to completely remove the tape his without having resulting “space monkey” artifacts. With the later version of CEDAR, I was able to successfully remove the last vestiges of the tape hiss. Interestingly - if Mastering 4 and Mastering 2 can be time aligned - that would further prove that theory. If I had a copy of Mastering 4, this is the first thing I'd check in Audacity. Otherwise, my guess is that Mastering 4 is this one Roger mentions, created by unknown MCA engineers from the decaying analog tapes: I jumped in my car and zipped over to the nearest record store and purchased new copies of the CDs in question. He was right, the new stock CDs sounded exactly like the gold CDs, including the pitch shift on the Gaucho CD. But - like I said - I'm about 90% to 95% convinced that Mastering 4 can't be Roger's. The question is - is it Glenn's? Time aligning with Citizen Steely Dan might provide the answer. Also - if I haven't mentioned it - thank you for discussing this with me - none of my friends are nearly as interested as I am. Cheers, Paul
I must admit that my head does begin to hurt at points. But I find this information very interesting.
Not sure if this information is helpful or re-treading old info — but I have a US JVC pressing of Aja with the following peak levels: 81.4 / 100 / 98 / 97.4 / 99.8 / 100 / 90.4 This doesn't seem to perfectly match "Mastering 4", which shows "100" for track 3 instead of the "98" that mine shows. In looking at this mastering of "Peg" in Audacity, compared to the 'Citizen Steely Dan' version, it does seem to align to the samples. If this is helpful and anyone would like any additional info, I can do my best to provide.
I don’t have access to my copy of 4 right now, but when I do I’ll check for those glitches again and compare it to Citizen again.
It could be that the mastering identified as 7 would be from the same transfer as 3 and 6 with only added dither, but I keep asking myself why would they have dithered it unless they transferred it from an analog tape at a bit depth of more than 16-bit? Bad practice, maybe? What intrigues me the most is that the samples align between those masterings, meaning they probably came from the same digital tape. It's interesting because the first digital transfer was the one done by Roger Nichols, and it contains some well-known glitches. Since these three masterings do not contain those glitches, it wouldn't be fair to assume that the analog tape which sourced that digital one would not have been the same use by Nichols? Maybe masterings 3, 6, and 7 are the ones referred to in the Metal Leg article, which were transferred from analog tapes to the 1630 tape. Well, Roger does state that these stock CDs sounded like the gold CDs from MFSL. Have any comparisons between masterings been made to spot which would be close to the gold CDs?
Just a slight correction. The first digital transfers of Katy Lied for CD - and possibly Aja - were done by Steve Hoffman. Katy Lied appears to have been released by MCA as is - but for Aja, after mastering from the original analog tape, the Hoffman PCM 1600 tapes and analog tapes were taken away by Roger, ostensibly to be remastered. We don't know exactly what happened after that. Also - we don't know the source of the glitches. If my current mental model holds, the later glitches may have occurred during the restoration of the 3M digital tapes in the 1990's. For example, the Aja glitches I mention here: Steely Dan CDs Different Masterings: The Summary Thread Here's how it could have happened. The 1980's CDs are made from the master tapes or the new 3M digital reels - no glitches. As Glenn and Roger state - 14 or so years later - they pull the data from the 3M reels. (See here Steely Dan CDs Different Masterings: The Summary Thread and here Steely Dan CDs Different Masterings: The Summary Thread ) Specifically this note from Roger: "More recently the early 3M tapes were transferred to CD. The 3M tapes were marginal in their ability to play back correctly and finding a machine to play them back was a task in itself. Because the data was digital, it was possible to recover the albums completely with no further degradation during the additional 14 years of storage." Say that there are a few glitches in the 3M tapes after those 14 years - like the static that's in Aja. If the 1990's and the 2000's masterings are from that 3M "digital retrieval" at Masterfonics by Glenn, that would line up. The '00 editions were probably not from the 3M reels - my guess is that, if it was hard to transfer from the 3M in the '90s, it would be near impossible to find a working deck in the '00s. They would have worked from the digital backups they made in the '90s, which would have identical glitches. It's important to note - that's not the only scenario. For example - it could be that when Roger transferred the analog master tapes of Aja to 3M, the glitch occurred during the transfer. However - it didn't occur when Steve transferred it, so the decision was made to go with Hoffman's PCM 1600 mastering for the CDs. It's a puzzle for sure. None should match. MSFL worked from the analog tapes with their own gear. It's doubtful that there will be many similarities between theirs and any of the MCAs - at least in my opinion. Cheers, Paul
As first noticed by @WiWavelength earlier in this thread, there's (very low level) bias to the positive side present in the waveforms of mastering 3. It's clearly visible in the pic below. The values of the samples for the Nimbus mastering 7 (and 6) were recalculated to center the wave. This, plus the fact that the analog bias probably was lightly fluctuating during the AD transfer, plus the fact that in the PCM 16xx days the 'fix' constantly had to be recalculated for a limited group of samples, makes it impossible to produce a perfect null during testing. When examining the null mix you'll logically find that the bias is also present there. Mastering 4 of Aja contains the same mastering as the one on the Citizen box, except for two tracks were Cedar NR was applied: Steely Dan CDs Different Masterings: Aja
The 1990s probably were the black hole -- pun forthcoming -- for transferring archival reels from the obsolete 3M digital recorder multitrack system. But thanks in part to the film score industry, the situation actually improved in the 2000s. Intrada Soundtrack Forum • View topic - INTRADA Announces John Barry's THE BLACK HOLE AJ
To update everyone, the copy of "Mastering 4" that I have is MCAD-37214 DIDX55 Manufactured in USA for MCA. The artwork identifies it as 1984 (but that could be wrong). It has the glitch at 2:18 in "I Got the News." So it's definitely from the same 3M tape used for the Citizen box and the 1999 remaster. I agree with @strippies that both the Meadows-mastered Citizen box Aja and Mastering 4 use the same digital source (as does the '99 Nichols remaster). Is the difference in EQ on some tracks actually just additional CEDAR noise reduction? You can look at the GIF I made comparing tracks from the two in Har-Bal. Are those differences just from additional noise reduction? Maybe. It's plausible. Building off of that, is Mastering 4 actually a stealth early-'90s Meadows remaster as @Paul P. posits? I don't know. It's plausible, too. If so, though, it means that '80s-era Nichols mastering of Aja was never released or that the Hoffman-identified mastering is actually Nichols's '80s mastering and Hoffman's pass was never released. All in all, very fascinating stuff! I'll probably write a quick update to my TBVO summarizing all of this. Thanks @strippies and @Paul P.!
Thank you for the update, @JoshM!! Just to add to that briefly - Glenn does mention that he would change the EQ slightly if he removed noise. Processing included all digital EQ/Compression signal processing. Also, several functions of CEDAR was used. On the older albums, a light processing of De-Noise was applied. This was used in conjunction with the EQ processing so that when the noise was removed, there was also no loss of hi-end (a typical false accusation about CEDAR, the reality is an overly aggressive application of the process). So - if as suspected - Glenn used a bit of De-Noise on the Citizen Box tracks that wasn't on his original mastering - chances are he would have changed the EQ slightly as well. This seems to be borne out in the graphs you've posted, I think? As for Masterings 3, 6, 7 being a Hoffman or Nichols? Only MCA knows for sure - and they aren't telling. Cheers, Paul
I love the GIF, great way of representing things across an album. Thanks as always for your great analysis, research and writing across a lot of stuff and no doubt you and the two compadres you cite really do move the ball forward digging into this murky world.
666 posts is devilishly long for a summary thread. When do you expect to reach some sort of a conclusion for us mere mortal fans to guide us in the right direction ?
Ha well the conclusions were mostly reached years ago, this just puts all the albums in one place. I’d venture to say the thread was home to some of the most conclusive analysis of Aja’s lack of conclusions, but beyond that I think the first page gathers the answers you need.
@JoshM - I really appreciate your work on this. Thank you! It feels like a great on-line mystery - and we're all sleuths on the case! It has definitely brightened my day lately. Just in case folks need the link: The Best Version Of… Steely Dan’s Aja Cheers, Paul
A short while ago it was confirmed that a very rare first cd mastering of the not unsuccessful Michael Jackson album 'Thriller' exists: https://forums.stevehoffman.tv/thre...s-here-part-25.365297/page-1252#post-27363513 Quoting from your TBVO blog: In Hoffman's telling, MCA pressed around 5,000 CDs with Hoffman’s mastering, but as many as 4,000 of them were destroyed when the band decided they wanted Nichols to have control of their CD releases. While Hoffman’s mastering wasn’t supposed to be released, he says that some nonetheless eventually found their way into stores. My point, as noted before, it's not impossible that nobody yet submitted the fingerprint values of an actually existing very rare Hoffman pressing. This would be not strange at all considering the dislike or even hostility of many forum members towards posted numerical data.
It would be very cool if there is, indeed, still a mystery mastering out there that no one has cataloged. (Coincidentally, I actually just ordered a sealed '80s Aja from from Ebay on a whim yesterday! Haha.)
Pardon me for not reading all 27 pages of this (though I did read the first few pages and the last one), but here's a disc I just picked up cheap on eBay that I didn't see mentioned on page 1. Aja, mastering #3 Front of disc MCAD-37214 DIDX 000055 Manufactured in U.S.A. for MCA Records Inc. Matrix DIDX-000055 4 + ++ +++++ Hub Made in USA Digital Audio Disc Corp. No indication that this is a club edition: no "CRC" or "Dxxxxxxx" "Manufactured under license" or anything on the disc or the back insert. Very nice sounding disc. Any idea when this would have been made? Discogs is rather unhelpful on the question of when DADC made copies of this album.
Very similar, and the matrix appears to be identical, but there are some differences: That one's a Columbia Record Club disc (CRC, DIDY); mine is not. There are some differences to the positioning and wording of the text on the right; for example, the words "Manufactured in U.S.A. for" have been removed before "MCA Records, Inc.", and "Made in USA" has been added further down.
